Anecdotal Evidence
Anyway the group was formed and after some hassles getting in there due to the stupid phasing issues at the stone we started clearing the trash. Everything was going fine and we didn't have any major issues with the trash except that someone popped one of the traps that we could have skipped - the tanks picked it up and we proceeded up to Marrowgar. Now someone gave a brief explanation of what was going to happen and I emphasised that melee and ranged will need to break the bone spikes because we were melee heavy and then we gave it a shot. I think we got just out of the first Bone Storm when we wiped.
We gave it four attempts before I had to go and the raid fell apart. We wiped on the trash before the second attempt because someone didn't follow the same path back in as the previous clear and triggered the traps and pulled mobs. We lost the first healer after the second attempt, which I quickly found a replacement for, and they lasted one attempt before they decided we were a no-hope pug and we found a final replacement not too quickly. There were certainly plenty of people looking to pug the weekly.
However despite the good gearscores of the players (I had the lowest of them all and I was fine for healing it) it couldn't determine if they were competent players. Could they get out of the fire, and more importantly could the DPS kill the bone spikes? On the last attempt, it was most obvious why we were having trouble - it was the second issue - the DPS were not breaking the player out of bone spikes - it was being done by one player - one of my guild mates. How do I know this - because on the last attempt he was the first one to be hit by the bone spikes and he was still stuck when we wiped 1 more bone spike and a bone storm later.
On the flip side - on that last attempt I did think we would have some trouble because I could see from the gearscore that the replacement healer was not really ready for 10 man ToC let alone 10 man ICC - and I really did feel the loss in healing. But I will re-emphasis that it can only be a general guide - I know I could boost my gearscore in my healing spec with a new libram but the iLevel 200 one is still the best option.
Measuring Competency
So the question is - how do you find out which players are competent or not? The only person that linked me their achievement was one of the DPS - who did nothing to help with the bone spikes - so it is not a fool proof check either. I haven't tried out the Elitist Group add-on and I think it would help a little bit more than gearscore, but it cannot answer the question either - but can more completely measure general playing experience.
In contrast to the Marrowgar weekly, last week I organised the raid weekly for Instructor Razuvious Must Die! - again with a couple of (different) guildies. Now this is a different level of difficulty to Lord Marrowgar, but we got into Naxx to find that neither of the tanks had tanked it before - a fight which is traditionally hard to master in one attempt. So I switched to my tank spec and got another to heal it, and after a couple of false starts we ended up downing him - with what amounted to 8 players (I didn't realise until later than the tank I asked to DPS didn't have dual specs and so was tanking in his tanking gear and spec - and we lost a healer to a disconnection so I switched back to healing). What made it work? The players - in this case one of the DPS knew what they were doing and took over the tanking but the other tank who had never done it before picked it up with ease. I know when I first tanked it I wiped us twice before I got the hang of the mind control. I was impressed by this tank, to say the least.
So gearscore (or any other add-on) could not tell me any of this. How do we form a pug with some hope of success? The main way I normally approach this is to have people I know that are competent filling key roles. I normally like to have a healer and a tank that I know (i.e. are from my guild) and often when organising the weekly this is the case, but as I saw in the Marrowgar attempts you also need competent DPS (an more than one).
Where did all my friends go?
One thing I finally came to recognise today, after reading Veneretio's post The Dungeon Tool is ruining your chances of raid tanking, is that in times of yore I would have had people on my friends list to call upon (and actually did) when trying to fill raid spots (and in those days 5 man spots). My friends list has fallen into disrepute - for four reasons:
- As Veneretio pointed out - I'm not making new friends because LFD means they are just random faces, rather than faces I could intentionally run into again (by a large - I should take more note of who is on my server when running pugs)
- I took a break from WoW for 3 months - so the constant contact I used to have isn't there. Additionally I am playing less, and usually earlier in the evening, so our overlap times have changed.
- I've switched mains to a main that jumped straight into raiding with my guild - so Keluin's friends list is largely people I leveled with - which they most likely hit 80 way before Keluin did and so the time we last played together is even longer.
- I've been part of the same guild for about 10 months now and they have always been active in running dungeons together - prior to the introduction of LDF I hadn't had exposure to pugs for a good long while.
So all of these things mean that my friends list is out of date - probably filled with people that don't play any more etc, etc.
The raid weekly is the dungeon of old
Find competent players has become a bit more pertinent a question as I've been looking to organise a once a week 10 man ICC raid night as part of my guild. Given my time restrictions, and being in a relatively small guild - this means that we will have to look outside the guild to fill in the places for a regular 10 man. So in discussions with my GM (who was also with me in the Marrowgar attempt) we have started to look out for good players to fill the gaps that need filling.
So the question about choosing pug members from the wall of messages that you receive still remains unanswered - but I can see that the raid weekly pug is going to have to become the new format for finding those dependable players - all-be-it once a week. I know I need to start taking note of names again!
Does anyone have a magical tool for pug discernment?
I do not have a magical tool, and I give people a lot of chances when I form groups - I say in my recruiting message:
ReplyDelete"LFM for Marrowgar Must Die, need 1 OT, 1 healer capable of 2-healing, and 3 dps, MUST be appropriately geared for the encounter and know the fight"
I do not ask for gear score or achievement - I trust that people are telling the truth. As added security, though, once the raid is formed, I tell everyone,
"Pull your weight or I will replace you - I need ALL dps on bone spikes, tanks need to stay together, etc. - you'll be kicked if you are doing under XX dps on Marrowgar"
And I will. If it becomes obvious that they do not know what to do (or that they are not interested in doing their job, such as dpsing bone spikes), then I'll kick them.
As long as you warn the group up front, both in the advertisement and when you form the raid, you should filter out a lot of the asshats who only pretend to know what to do.
I do use Elitist Group sometimes - I believe it'll tell you what fights that person has participated in as well as give a positive or negative in regards to their gems, enchants, and gear for their current spec. You can filter out a lot of dummies that way, too.
I must admit that I am not that tough when it comes to raid leading. I really should be because it's not fair on the rest if some (or many) are not pulling their weight. You'll also be more likely to keep the good players if they see you are actively going out to improve the raid group - that case of the second healer we lost was after one attempt "There isn't enough DPS here to complete this - I'm out of here" - which was true - the majority of the DPS were hardly cracking 2k including the highest gearscore kitty that said he couldn't kill bone spikes because he has too much ramp up time.
ReplyDeleteI'll have to have a play around with Elitist Group - I had forgotten about the gem/enchants/gear perspective. I've always liked www.wow-heroes.com for that perspective as well (and I've used it as a guide to what raids I'm ready for too).